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In Late September, 2010 we received our first of several reports of some suspicious Engelhard 100oz silver bars. They were underweight, and it at first appeared that they were real Engelhard bars that were shaved (where someone would cut off a small amount from the sides of the bar).* Width and length of real bar have two separate values, due to the trapezoidal shape.
The serial numbers of the fake lead Engelhard 100 ounce silver bar use a different font than real Engelhard silver bars.
As you can see here, the scratches, dings, and other marks on a genuine Engelhard 100 ounce silver bar differ in color from those on the fake, lead bar.
![Engelhard 100 Oz Silver Bar Serial Number Lookup Engelhard 100 Oz Silver Bar Serial Number Lookup](http://allengelhard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/21-Engelhard_100Oz_TriangleLogo-001.jpg)
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in Precious Metals
Savvy collectors know that when they get a chance to buy Engelhard silver bars (particularly in rare weights like the 5 oz), they should snatch it up, especially if the bars are in like-new condition. Buying Engelhard Bullion. Engelhard no longer produces bullion items, but that does not mean that collectors need to roam the globe in search of.
I notice that some silver bars have serial numbers while others don't have a serial number---especially some of the news bars. Does it make any difference to you? Does the silver bar marketplace care?
![Serial Serial](/uploads/1/2/6/4/126407771/299257219.jpg)
Comments
- I had the same thought few weeks ago when I purchased some Sunshine Minting bars and noticed that they have the place for the serial number empty.
It doesn't make a big difference to me and I don't think the non-serialized have less demand.
Though, I think the serial number adds a professional touch to the bar.
In some instances, like for Engelhard and JM, the serial helps understand the year of production.The member formerly known as Ciccio / Posts: 1453 / Joined: Apr 2009
<< <i>I had the same thought few weeks ago when I purchased some Sunshine Minting bars and noticed that they have the place for the serial number empty.
It doesn't make a big difference to me and I don't think the non-serialized have less demand.
Though, I think the serial number adds a professional touch to the bar.
In some instances, like for Engelhard and JM, the serial helps understand the year of production. >>
I've seen the same on other brands---a place for the serial number but left blank. I guess they figured 'Why bother?'- Doesn't bother me at all. I've been buying non-serialized NTR 10 oz bars for years.
I think that the most likely explanation is that companies got tired of spending man hours on the phone/answering emails of people continually asking 'is the bar with serial # xxxxxx legit???'.http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections - Denying the facts does not make your wild guesses true.
- It doesn't matter to me one way or another.
The new Amark 10 oz bars do not have serial numbers even though they come with a raised rectangle area to receive one.The most money I made are on coins I haven't sold.
Got quoins? - Engelhard poured bars without a serial number are desirable and worth a premium. Stamped bars without serial numbers aren't any more desirable than those with serial numbers.Mark's Liberty Quarter Eagles - No End In Sight collection, Registry Sethttps://pcgs.com/SetRegistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-varieties-circulation-strikes-1840-1907/publishedset/39796
<< <i>It doesn't matter to me one way or another.
The new Amark 10 oz bars do not have serial numbers even though they come with a raised rectangle area to receive one. >>
I'm guessing that a major customer (jewelry, silverware, etc) that buys by the ton may specify that they want serial numbers for inventory control purposes to prevent employee pilfering. Hence, there is a provision in the design for a place to put a serial number.- Meh, doesn't matter to me. I actually don't have any bars and the one 5ozer I did buy got scooped up by a friend at her restaraunt for her son before I could even get it home.
<< <i>Stamped bars without serial numbers aren't any more desirable than those with serial numbers. >>
when i have a choice, i desire them with serial numbers.
never stopped me from buying if they aren't.BST transactions: guitarwes; glmmcowan; coiny; nibanny; messydesk- No preference either way, but if it has space for a number, I feel it should have one. It looks odd otherwise.
<< <i>
<< <i>It doesn't matter to me one way or another.
The new Amark 10 oz bars do not have serial numbers even though they come with a raised rectangle area to receive one. >>
I'm guessing that a major customer (jewelry, silverware, etc) that buys by the ton may specify that they want serial numbers for inventory control purposes to prevent employee pilfering. Hence, there is a provision in the design for a place to put a serial number. >>
That makes sense. Use one stock design, but give the customer the option of taking them numbered or unnumbered.Denying the facts does not make your wild guesses true.- I log all PM purchases into a simple excel file. Description, date, misc. info, weight, price paid. Took a minute to set up the file, takes literally 10 seconds to enter data for each unique item, less for duplicates. I keep a copy on my computer, email a copy to my hotmail (outlook) email address periodically. Can access it from anywhere, it can never be stolen or lost.
I enter the serial numbers, slab number, certification number, etc. in the 'misc info' column.
So I see serial numbers as a benefit.
Serial numbers are one of the little positive extraneous factors--like top tier, brand name, original packaging, vintage, unusual, cool, etc.--that I keep my eyes open for and that I buy when I can get them at 'generic' prices. They can potentially help get premium dollars when I sell, but at the very least they sell faster.We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
--Severian the Lame - Without a serial number, how can you know that the bar/s is/are real? In talking to a couple of people here regarding buying gold, it was advised to buy AGEs as they are apparently easier to sell. Why would that be? Unless you get it direct from the mint, how can you be sure that an AGE is real?theknowitalltroll; my coin pics at www.collectivecoin.com
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876 - Without a serial number, how can you know that the bar/s is/are real?
Not only that, with no serial number makes it easier to be passed along if it's stolen. Of course the thief could use a tap-punch to punch out the serial number as I have sen doen on eBay before. And then to me, it makes the bar even that more suspect. I stay away from non-serialzed bars.
Now I'm only talking about Engelhard, JM and so forth. If a Christmas round doesn't have a serial number, I could care less.To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
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However, upon receiving a sample, it turned out not to be made of silver, and is most likely lead.
Real | Fake |
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The serial numbers of the fake lead Engelhard 100 ounce silver bar use a different font than real Engelhard silver bars.
In these images, you can easily see the difference in the numeral '8'. In the real bar, it looks like two circles on top of each other, whereas with the fake bar it looks like the number was drawn as a single line (not meeting where it started).
You can also see the numeral '6' is different. On the real bar, the top of the '6' is more rounded, whereas on the fake bar it starts off straight. The bottom of the '6' on the real bar appears like a circle, whereas on the fake bar it again appears to be drawn as a line.
The other numbers also appear different than those on genuine Engelhard bars.
What About Marks on the Bar?
Real | Fake |
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As you can see here, the scratches, dings, and other marks on a genuine Engelhard 100 ounce silver bar differ in color from those on the fake, lead bar.
The key here is that the fake bar is likely silver plated, so any marks will get through to the lead, showing a different color than the metal around it.
What Should I Look Out For?
- Weight - For these bars, this is an easy and accurate test. These ones weigh about 10% less than they should. If it weighs less than about 99.8 troy ounces or less than 3100g, you should definitely be concerned. However, if the makers of these bars wanted to, they could make them the correct size and weight!
- Dimensions - The dimensions of these bars are off. The most noticeable is that they are 21mm thick, rather than the 27mm of a real Engelhard bar. However, as with the weight, if the makers of these bars wanted to, they could make them the correct size and weight!
- Seller - If the seller is in China, you really need to beware. The sellers of these bars were on trusted auction/sales sites, but with small sellers located in China. However, in the future, people from the U.S. that bought them will unknowingly resell them.
- Price - These were reported to sell for about 10%-20% under spot. This is high enough not to raise too much suspicion (thinking that the seller isn't aware of recent changes to the spot price, or bought them for much less and was happy with a smaller profit than they otherwise could get). And low enough to make people think they are getting a good deal.
- Correct Item? - It seems that the sellers of these are showing a different bar in the pictures than the one you receive, with a different serial number as well. Some of the sellers are just copying eBay auction descriptions, and likely copying the pictures too.
- Ring Test - By putting the bar in a plastic bag and tapping it with a hammer, you should hear a ringing sound if the bar is real. The bar we tested makes a 'clunk' sound (not a thud), that doesn't last as long as the ringing of a real bar.
- Magnet Test - A magnet will not stick to silver, lead, copper, or most metals. However, a rare earth magnet shows strong resistance when moved near or on silver (silver is diamagnetic). The fake bar we tested showed no signs of being diamagnetic (even though ), so a strong magnet showed no resistance near it.
What Does it Sound Like (Ring Test)?
When you put the fake bar in a plastic bag (so you are only holding the bag, not touching the bar) and tap it with a hammer, you hear a 'clunk' sound. With a real silver bar, you hear a ringing sound that lasts longer.How Did You Test with an Ultrasonic Thickness Gauge?
You can see on YouTube. You can also see a detailed description on our site. We measure the thickness of the bar (the real one was 27.05mm, the fake one 21mm). We then both set the UTG to the velocity of sound in silver (3,650 M/s), and calibrate it. We then put glycerin on the bar, and use the probe to see the thickness measurement (26.9mm for the real bar, 34.1 for the fake bar).
Since the thickness of the real bar matched that of the thickness displayed on the UTG, we knew that the real bar was made of real silver. With the fake bar, the real measurement and that shown by the UTG were very different, so we knew it was not real silver. We could then calculate by the real and displayed thicknesses, and the real velocity of sound in silver, what the actual velocity of sound in this material was (2,247 M/s).
![Engelhard 100 Oz Silver Bar Serial Number Lookup Engelhard 100 Oz Silver Bar Serial Number Lookup](http://allengelhard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/21-Engelhard_100Oz_TriangleLogo-001.jpg)
What else is out there?
In a discussion on eBay, there is a picture of a fake 100oz Engelhard bar (serial # P353038) made out of lead. Click to see a close-up: Unfortunately, we have no other information about this bar other than what you see.
For those that are curious: PLEASE DO NOT TRY THAT AT HOME! Lead is poisonous, and needs to be handled carefully.
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